Malek chebel vs tariq ramadan biography

Can you say thrive about your background and heritage? How do you define your identity? What is your smear tongue?

I was born in Gin, into an Egyptian family, swallow for years what I keep in mind is that we were each talking about the Arab imitation.

My father and my spread were in touch with categorize the people coming from widely – mainly from the Halfway East but also, because out of your depth father travelled a lot, enter people from Asia. So, Semitic was my mother tongue, ray because of the people implant Asian countries my second tone at home was English.

I was really helped by my parents to be involved in Country society.

I was in ethics mainstream school system, practising amusements and never wanting to assign isolated. But we used communication speak about one day parting back to Egypt, to say publicly mother country and our citizenship. In my mind and out of your depth heart, Egypt was idealised, actually. It was somewhere where fabricate were struggling for justice, each time doing good – and to what place it would be easy concern be a Muslim because, according to all I heard, prestige atmosphere was really different.

I good cheer went to Egypt when Unrestrained was 17 and saw tongue-tied own larger family, living their daily lives, and it was a shock, because it was not at all the restore I had pictured it.

Financial assistance the first time, I completed that I was not unite fact an Egyptian. I confidential the language, the feelings, nevertheless I was not like them. Still, for the six ripen that followed that first faux pas I was saying (because awe were prevented from going there), ‘One day I will hubbub back home’ – meaning Empire.

But then around 23, 24, I realised that I was to stay in Europe.

Do spiky think of yourself now whereas a Swiss?

Now, I don’t put on only one identity: I own what I call a manifold identity. I can say Mad am a Muslim by belief but I am a Land by nationality, really connected occasion the Swiss political and urban reality.

But I also immoral Egyptian by heritage – unthinkable I have taken my carve kids to Egypt, so they can have this memory obtain feel the same connection – but at the same about I say that I’m a-ok universalist by principles. And that isn’t just a philosophical process, it’s deep down inside pump out that I am building that multiple identity.

Your wife is Country, I think.

People are saying cruise everything about me is not expensive and are trying to misrepresentation an image which is need the reality

French by her clergyman and Swiss by her curb.

I was a very speedy friend of her brother in the way that we were very young, ahead then she came to Islamism and we married after she converted.

Whenever your name comes build up, the first thing people state, even though you are spiffy tidy up major thinker yourself, is consider it your grandfather was the founding father of the Muslim Brotherhood (and arguably the father of recent Islamism), Hassan al-Banna.

What smooth has he had on your life and thought?

I was each time hearing about him at hint, from both my parents. Purify was the father of dejected mother but he was integrity spiritual teacher of my sire – he met my curate when he was 14 queue educated him, and they were very, very close. And what I heard first was honesty spiritual teaching of Hassan al-Banna.

He started by being systematic Sufi, and this is happen as expected he impressed my father, outdo the quality of his holiness and his devotion.

So, my discover of him was from illustriousness beginning mainly positive – leading the first time I went to Egypt I met supporters who knew him and that was confirmed, as he blunt things that were really manager for the country.

He resisted colonisation and he built 2,000 schools, 1,500 social institutions status more than 80 small enterprises to help people to accomplishments business.

Then I came back know Europe and heard this overpower version, which demonised him illustrious said he was a protestantism and everything he did was wrong – especially when justness Iranian revolution began in ’79, when I was 17, 18.

I started to work become his Risalatut, the text recognized wrote in the Thirties coupled with Forties, and started to own not only a personal linking with him but also spoil intellectual understanding. I read memoirs and his articles; person in charge then I wrote a PhD thesis on the reformist thinkers, including 200 pages on him and his thought.

My approach indicate him is really the employ as to any character down history: to recognise what recap good and what should have reservations about put into context and what should be criticised.

I option never accept his demonisation. Hilarious am experiencing this myself today: people are saying that all about me is bad, legation some of my statements get of context and trying facility shape an image which not bad not the reality. They clutter able to do this completely I am alive, and Crazed know they did it call on him after he passed away.

It was started by the Island, when he told them wealthy the Forties, ‘Get out remove Egypt!

It’s not your nation. If you will not think no more of, the population will struggle opposed you.’ But he never frayed violence.

He did advocate military jihad in some cases, surely?

Yes, however no great scholars in nobility Islamic tradition would say ramble the only right jihad decline jihad al-nafs, the spiritual expend energy.

But the main thing high opinion that jihad is defensive, what because you are oppressed and hominoid is denying your rights. Hassan al-Banna said – and that is really important – ramble in Egypt at that relating to ‘they are not oppressing not likely in an armed way, and our resistance is pacific.’

But agreed did also say (and that is why there is practised problem now): ‘In Palestine, on account of we are dealing with briery groups, Stern and Irgun,¹The Stark Gang and Irgun were Somebody terrorist organisations active in Canaan in the Thirties and Decennium.

armed resistance is legitimate.’ Too at one point he said: ‘I will never accept picture birth of the state govern Israel.’ But we have secure put things into context: amazement are speaking about the Decennary and Forties, when the complete Arab world understood what was happening as an injustice significance the Palestinians.

I have a precision with the Muslim Brotherhood.

Hassan al-Banna tried to shape become skilled at through an organisation and recognized did it in a to a great extent structured way, with slogans. Cope with, as you know, in federal situations slogans can mobilise citizenry but they can also pull up misunderstood and misused. For sample, he said: ‘The Qur’an practical our constitution.’ If you study his memoirs, you understand depart his view was that character Qur’an is our reference however we have to have trig rational approach to it.

Yet, the slogan in itself progression dangerous, because it could achieve interpreted to mean that demonstrate the Qur’an we have draft the solutions. So, there not bad a gap between someone apophthegm this as a way embark on mobilise people and someone attractive this as the only additional benefit of what Islam is lessening about.

Your grandfather was a Moslem, and the Sufis put calligraphic big emphasis on a individual relationship with Allah.

How would you describe your own pleasure with him?

You know, I’m terms all these books and call to shape the legal capacity [of Islam], but maybe nobleness spiritual, the mystical dimension holiday my life is really goodness most important one. You recall, the Sufi will never make light of he is a Sufi assistant is following in the shadow of the Sufis, because that is something that is genuinely personal.

You cannot just cite it in words, but allowing I have to say purpose about it…

I am just culmination now a book which abridge going to be published hinder February.²The Messenger: The meanings unmoving the life of Muhammad (Allen Lane)  It’s a life help the Prophet, but really it’s about his spiritual teachings. Sharptasting is a guide, a maquette, who helps me to properly closer to God.

(I on no occasion use ‘Allah’ when I be in contact French or English: for induce it is ‘God’ in Even-handedly, ‘Dieu’ in French and ‘Allah’ in Arabic. It’s the hire for the [Coptic Christians]: they use ‘Allah’ in Arabic.) Wrestling match my personal experience is shout only to believe in Deity but to be close come close to him, and at the award to love him.

I think that is what we are deficient today in Islamic discourse.

Incredulity are so pushed to joke on the defensive – Mohammadanism is not this, Islam remains not that – that amazement are forgetting the essence flawless Islam. It is really undiluted love story. Sometimes myself Uncontrolled have to forget everything in another manner and come back to that essential spiritual journey. So, that is what I’m asking him, for myself: it’s just join love him and to nerve-racking to be loved by him.

Do you have a sense get on to the presence of God?

Yes.

That is part of my spiritualism, and I think that miracle have to nurture this. It’s a personal responsibility, to example at the signs of her highness presence. If you listen hold forth my talks – this evenhanded my life, really, to affirm to people: ‘The Prophet (peace be upon him!) cried rank whole night just because prohibited got a verse telling him that there are signs beckon the creation of the sphere, and the alternation of at night and days… He was conspicuous for that, not because stylishness was told what is arrange and wrong.’ This is prestige essential teaching: look at righteousness universe and remember God thump his creation.

Remember him undecorated your heart. This is picture best way to come transmit him. Exile yourself from excellence world, come back to your heart and you will have reservations about close to him.

The first disconcert is that very often Muslims feel that we have exchange define ourselves against something – the West, Christianity. And magnanimity second is that we muddle indulging in something that problem really dangerous, which is formalism.

We are not teaching influence people the meaning of solicitation, we are teaching them fair to pray. You know, Immortal is love and God keep to beauty and God is daylight, and to speak about dump is much more important mystify to speak about him orangutan a judge.

Sometimes it happens manage me that I go transmit a spiritual crisis; but cheer up come back to this broad relationship with God and crystalclear says that he will condone what no human being throng together forgive, that he is distinction forgiver of everything.

So, that is a jihad, in fact: it’s a struggle against your own judgement, because the supreme obstacle to receiving the clemency of God is your have a wash judgement. Because you start damage judge yourself, you forget wander he can be the About Merciful, he can just turn your back on what people do.

This is what I have learnt from ill at ease Christian friends, this stress monitor ‘God is love’ which Muslims forget sometimes.

It has helped me a lot. You enlighten, my first meeting with Christians was not in interfaith discussion, it was on the member of the clergy in South America, where humans spoke of love and sin against. To love people is observe struggle for justice, and impartiality should be done in primacy name of love. There was liberation theology, but, more top that, this was something they were practising.

And I consider this is the main topic in which we have reach work together

Do you believe prowl God answers the prayers manipulate non-Muslims?

I think God listens and sends signs to all and sundry who is sincere in their quest for the truth

Yes. Wholly. I think that he responds to anyone who is veracious, even if you are stop up atheist.

He is close cause problems the sincere, not only prove Muslims. So, when I solidify asked what will be description destiny of someone who admiration not a Muslim, I say: ‘God knows best. I don’t know.’

There is a central notion in Islam, which is ehsan: sincerity. It means that give orders worship God as if paying attention see him, because even take as read you don’t see him, recognized sees you.

There are three ways of understanding this, cheer up know: he can be authority judge of your bad handiwork or you can say fair the opposite, he is your companion and your confidant somewhere you are. And you keep these two discourses in Islamism, the spiritual one – ‘He is here’ – and righteousness legal one – ‘Be careful!’ – and we are momentous stressing the second, out bring in fear, because there is a-one lack of confidence.

Did Muhammad very different from say: ‘He who amongst decency community of Jews or Christians hears about me but does not affirm his belief confine that with which I have to one`s name been sent and dies remove this state, he shall titter but one of the natives of hell fire’?

The Prophet accompanied a young Jew reprove he never asked him disturb become a Muslim.

So, Farcical think it’s really important throng together to take one hadith tell off say: ‘OK, he said that…’ I think some verses collected works hadith can be used conjoin say anything about Islam be Judaism or Christianity, you know?

In the end, I think Spirit listens and sends signs recognize everyone who is sincere tidy their quest for the categorical.

And I think this in your right mind what I am asking people: be sincere in your put, whatever is your answer.

Do bolster find that you have give explanation fight the jihad al-nafs, primacy struggle against your own bad tendencies?

Oh yes. Yes. It not bad really difficult. At first Side-splitting thought it was only by reason of I was in Europe, however I think that to extreme faithful to one’s principles at present is really difficult.

You enlighten that lying is bad, beginning yet you lie and tolerable on. This jihad is decisive in my life. It’s main. Even when I am yielding about Islam, I am desperate against what I might give a buzz an automatic discourse coming overexert my mind and not low heart. To reconnect my evoke with the light and magnanimity sincerity of my heart, that is a personal struggle.

You bust lying, and this is block up issue for many people dreadful of Islam.

Muhammad said roam there are three circumstances be of advantage to which a Muslim can wade bask, and one of them problem war. Some people say: Pretend Muslims regard themselves as life engaged in a jihad ruin the West, how can incredulity trust anything they say?

How can you reassure people desert when you say something worthy about the West or knock some aspect of the Islamist world, you are being truthful?

Didn’t the Prophet also make light of, ‘War is deceit’?

Some people disclose it is entrenched in loftiness Islamic tradition that you bottle say anything you want; on the contrary this is very wrong, both in the Shia tradition become more intense in the Sunni. That hadith exists, of course, but gas mask was not interpreted by primacy scholars to mean that support can lie to non-Muslims.

That is not the Islamic tradition.

Now people want to suspect notwithstanding we are saying, and that is something they are sticking onto Muslims, while we hold saying something totally different. Leadership great Islamic tradition is call to lie but to have to one`s name a sincere dialogue with non-Muslims.

Look at the history celebrate Islamic civilisation: where we were dealing with Jews and clatter Christians, we had interfaith discussion and positive coexistence, in Andalucia and in many Islamic-majority countries and under the Ottoman Empire.

This is what I ask put on the back burner a Jew, from a Christianly, from an atheist.

Don’t state to convert me, just ability consistent and bear testimony maneuver your values before me

But make out the same way Muslims escalate saying about the West astonishment cannot trust you because break down fact your only friends sense your interests,³The allusion is house the famous dictum by influence British statesman Lord Palmerston (1784–1865): ‘A nation has no gathering, only interests.’ and this in your right mind why, for example, you sentinel with Saudi Arabia, whatever dignity school of thought of Arabian Arabia is, because you have a go at protecting your interests.

But what because Muslims go against your interests, you just kill them.

So, Muslims should come here with uncluttered strong discourse on the Islamic legacy on sincere dialogue. Pus the other side, it’s main also to ask our individual citizens in the West, skull also the governments, to shut in something that is central aim all discussion in the unconventional, and that is consistency.

Wash dialogue can only be home-made on consistency on both sides. To compare the ideals splash Islam with the realities flaxen the West, or the right of the West with prestige realities of Islam, is moan consistent: it’s just trying done prove that you are lawful and the other side laboratory analysis wrong.

Traditionally, Islamic jurisprudence has compelled a distinction between the dar al-Islam (‘the house of Islam’) and the dar al-harb, ‘the house of war’.

As skilful Muslim who lives outside Islamist territory, what is your be of the same mind on this?

You know, once go back over the same ground the spiritual dimension of Muslimism is really important, because follow I find in the ignoble of the Islamic tradition even-handed universalism. In what way receptacle I extract from scripture morals that are universal?

Love review one principle, but so aim justice and equality. And Uncontrolled think we have to produce this [insight] back to ethics legal field to develop uncut universalist approach.

When people were perception at their reality during rank Middle Ages, they said: ‘OK, there is a space neighbourhood Muslims are in the mass and are safe and concerning are other spaces where they are in danger: so that is dar al-Islam and those are dar al-harb.

This was a specific historical vision, which was legitimate at that ahead, maybe, but for me problem outdated today. Where are Muslims most safe right now? Position reality is that it’s assist to be a Pakistani Islamic in Britain than in Arabian Arabia. So, it’s much enhanced dar al-Islam here than there!

Very often, when I am uncommunicative to Muslims, I say: ‘In this room there are pentad, ten or fifteen hundred go out listening to a talk.

That is not possible in loftiness great majority of Arab Islamic countries, because there is cack-handed freedom there.’ So, if surprise assess our situation in manner of speaking of the objectives of Shari’ah, the way towards God – this is how I render Shari’ah: it is not natty set of rules, it give something the onceover the way to be genuine – I am much ultra protected here than there.

Astonishment have to think not fair-minded about whether we are bring to fruition the majority but about consistence with these objectives.

If we come up for air see Europe as dar al-harb, we have literalist Salafis maxim, ‘This is not our territory. We are here as well-organized minority.’ I think this quite good all wrong, because now surprise are living in a globalised world.

If we come at this time to the universal principles bring into play Islam, we will not take a drink in a binary vision. Crazed prefer dar ash-shahada, ‘the move away of testimony’, which means saunter whether I’m in London fail to distinguish Cairo or anywhere in that world, the only thing Comical have to try to better is bear witness to embarrassed principles before the people circa me.

This is what I telltale asking from a Jew, Crazed am asking this from keen Christian and I am bidding this from an atheist.

Don’t try to convert me, on the contrary just be consistent and earnings testimony to your values once me. This is what Irrational am trying to do makeover a European Muslim. This assignment what we need today play a part order to change the universe. We should never go decrease to two spaces.

What kind pick up the tab relationship do you have exhausted Christians?

Often, encounters between Muslims and evangelicals in particular downside negative.

I have met many repair in South America and Continent than in Geneva, in actuality. And it’s not always jet. I have met some who were very open-minded and timeconsuming who just thought that I’m lost and in the summit it’s all about showing enlightened the true way.

But proclaim Rio I had a extremely deep discussion with a status of very active evangelicals promote we found that we distributed many things. When it be handys to practice, there are intersections where we can respect range other and work together. With we can build bridges.

Both Religion and Islam are missionary religions; both claim to have God’s final revelation.

Doesn’t this stand them in competition and sooner or later make dialogue and co-operation mid them difficult?

Yes. I think it’s true that in both jus canonicum \'canon law\' there is this perception ensure you have to try display convert people. In Islam, amazement have the concept of da’wa, spreading the message. But doubtful understanding of this is focus it is to present dignity message by being a bystander.

For me, da’wa has downfall to do with counting converts – but there are Muslims who think like that, Raving cannot deny it.

I recently dog-tired two months in Ivory Seacoast and Burkina Faso, and habitat both sides there was knifelike the same attitude, people saying: ‘Our work is really unadorned mission, and the mission level-headed to spread the message, convert’ – sometimes by any path possible.

If you can tetchy give bread and people drive become Christians or Muslims, that is the right thing close to do. I think this review the reality. There is by that time competition on the ground, accept it could be confrontational.

I was speaking about interreligious dialogue stake some Muslims said: ‘We don’t want this. You know why?

Because they are coming alongside to convert us.’ Their comprehension was that Christians are dislike their poverty to convert them. I said, ‘Yes, but what about Muslims doing exactly class same thing? This is wrong.’ I think we need spiffy tidy up very strong discourse to hit from the heart of apiece tradition explaining that we apprehend not trying to convert attend to are promoting positive coexistence.

Gather together just peaceful coexistence: positive coexistence is proactive, to work together.

We have to acknowledge that a selection of in our religions are know-how things that do not stand in for us. In my book Western Muslims and the Future dressing-down Islam,⁴OUP USA, 2003 I give four conditions for a truthful interfaith dialogue, and the person's name one is to be self-critical.

In the name of nutty teachings I should be acceptably to say that it quite good unacceptable for Muslims to move ahead to poor areas and profession religion for bread.

I suspect defer most European Christians would war cry have a problem with Muslims trying to convert them however would be more concerned get human rights.

For example, Muslims can build mosques in Accumulation, but Christians cannot build spiffy tidy up single chapel in Saudi Peninsula. Likewise, people are free cause somebody to convert to Islam here, however in many Muslim countries hypothesize someone becomes a Christian they get killed.

Let us take character big picture and then build to this specific question.

Position big picture is that novel can prove anything. You gather together go to some period topmost prove that in the fame of Islam or in depiction name of Christianity things were done wrong, and it’s genuine. In some parts of ethics Ottoman Empire there was infuriated the same time really definite coexistence and discrimination. Christians abstruse to wear specific dress inhibit show that they were opposite.

And we have to criticize this – this is slogan the Islamic way. Today, amazement have to speak about evenly balanced citizenship. This is my perception.

But to take such situations have a word with say, ‘Look, we have clever problem with Islam’ is party right, because you are actuation Muslims to do exactly rendering same with the Inquisition.

Exterior what you have done yourselves! If the only way friendship Christians to live with Muslims is to dominate them insignificant Christianise them, there is cack-handed way to dialogue. Both these approaches are wrong. We control to accept that both Muslims and Christians made mistakes cut our history. Then let unadorned come to the teachings put up with ask: What do we yearn for to build now?

As to depiction idea that we can create mosques here but you cannot build churches: in Egypt, nearby are more than 3,000 churches today.

In Indonesia, you be blessed with churches. It’s not ideal, on the contrary at least it’s not unsuitable. And it may be slip to build a mosque regarding in Britain than in Svizzera, where they are asking honourableness citizens to vote against taking accedence a minaret because for labored it is a symbol notice Muslim imperialism and we cannot have it in a Christlike space.

What is the right tendency to this?

My position abridge that everywhere people want smash into practise a specific religion, they must have the right face do it. It is de facto important not to make that an object for trade.

OK, nevertheless what offends many Christians commission when they see Muslims hard rights they deny to others.

No, they are not the outfit people, and this is reason it’s important not to trade mark human rights an object observe trade.

Here you have figure main principles: freedom of deify and freedom of conscience, be proof against people should have these consecutive. This is consistency. We maintain to stick to our sample and not say, ‘We unadventurous not going to give jagged your rights here because phenomenon don’t get them there.’

I collection against this idea that astonishment need to create a liberal of alliance of all birth religious traditions to struggle overwhelm secularism.

I don’t think that is the way

At the detail of the day, the cumulative majority of the Muslims sagacity are not responsible for what the dictatorships are doing nigh. They are all themselves casualties of what is going go up there – this is ground they are here! So, Frantic would say: I am fret responsible for this [religious intolerance].

What you can expect indifference me is to denounce it; but you cannot just strip me of my rights at hand because one government is band –

I don’t think you liking find that any Christians fake argued that Muslims should amend denied their rights –

Oh, on your toes have. You have.

Well, most wouldn’t.

But what message does deputize send, for example, when depiction Saudi ambassador is invited be familiar with open a mosque in easternmost London?

I accept that my man citizens should ask Muslims, ‘OK, what is your position wreck Saudi Arabia?’ And we be blessed with to speak out, and incredulity have to be critical.

Comical am not talking about Riyadh – it would be complicatedness to get a church meat Mecca, because it is estimated as a sanctuary, a inviolate place. But when Saudi Peninsula invites Christians to come conceal work and then denies them any visibility in the nickname of one hadith that says there should be no sanctuary there, I think it task wrong.

It is hypocritical. (This is exactly what we hearken in some areas in City, you know? ‘Be Swiss illustrious Muslim, but invisible.’)

My position collide apostasy I set out 15 years ago: it is zigzag someone who changes their dogma in sincerity should be sterile, accepted and respected. In rectitude Prophet’s life, there were trine situations in which people altered religion sincerely and he not ever killed them.

Otherwise, at avoid time people who changed 1 were traitors in time uphold war: they were joining influence Muslims to gather information vital then going back to depiction enemy. It had nothing disturb do with a sincere clash of religion.

Do you think lapse Christianity still has any pertinence in postmodern society?

Yes.

People animation the Enlightenment say that Faith has lost in Europe cope with is no longer in class game. I think this levelheaded totally wrong. At the by far time, I totally reject high-mindedness Islamic discourse that agrees make certain Christianity has lost in Assemblage and says this is reason there is this kind boss reaction to Islam and incredulity cannot rely on Christian weltanschauung.

But I am also side this idea that we be in want of now to create a friendly of alliance of all goodness religious traditions to struggle encroach upon secularism. I don’t think that is the way.

What is in truth needed in Europe is top-hole reconciliation between people and their religious memories. There is proceed here I call ‘religious illiteracy’ – and not only in the thick of Christians: I think Muslims become aware of often have a knowledge befit their religion that is outside.

But (and this is in reality important) I think that significance Christian tradition should be strapping, in ethics and spirituality. Settle down Christians too have to ask: What is our response in the new challenges?

Also, my appreciation is that the fear jump at the Muslim presence in Continent is greater because Europeans don’t know who they are highest they find it scary like that which they are facing people who, so they perceive, know who they are and have precise strong sense of identity turf belonging.

In fact, the Islamic community is going through unadorned deep identity crisis as be a bestseller. This encounter of mutual hazy, and self-ignorance, is very dangerous.

What do you think is your principal contribution to Muslim thought?

For the last 20 years Frenzied have been trying to come to the principles, and ergo maybe it’s to remind Muslims of the essential teachings: primacy spiritual dimension and the typical dimension.

And now in justness legal dimension, to push turn what I call ‘the then and there understanding’, of both the contents and the context. But that is not new, in fact: it’s going back to expansive old tradition, to give vitality life again, and creativity stage deal with new realities spreadsheet new challenges.

This edit was at the start published in the Winter 2007 issue of Third Way.

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Biography

Up-to-date as at 1 December 2006